Episode · Interesting Times · 2026-05-21
Books mentioned on The Best Defense Against A.I. is Reading Plato | Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
What’s really driving the humanities crisis in higher education? As enrollment and reading decline, I asked Jennifer Frey, a professor of philosophy, what it was like to run a liberal arts program that was gutted.
Ross Douthat discussed The Republic, The Odyssey, The Firm by John Grisham, Hamlet by William Shakespeare, and A Time to Kill by John Grisham. Jennifer Frey discussed The Confessions by Saint Augustine (of Hippo) and The Symposium.
Books mentioned, in the order they came up
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The Republic
Plato's foundational classical text "The Republic" explores justice, political structures, and the nature of reality.
Discussed“Would you say that there is a inherent value in being able to read and engage with Plato’s Republic, or being able to listen to and experience Handel or Bach or anyone else who’s considered a great composer?”
Where to get it
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The Odyssey
The Odyssey by Homer is an epic ancient Greek poem that follows the arduous ten-year journey of Odysseus as he attempts to return home to Ithaca after the Trojan War, encountering mythical creatures, divine wrath, and numerous trials along the way.
Discussed“Such as about the idea that, just for instance, that an encounter with Shakespeare is better than an encounter with fiction, or that an encounter with the Odyssey is better.”
Where to get it
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The Firm
The Firm by John Grisham is a gripping legal thriller published in 1991 that follows a young lawyer who joins a prestigious firm, only to discover it is a front for the mafia.
Discussed“The Philistine skeptic that Shakespeare is better than John Grisham. Is Shakespeare better than John grisham? Yes why I haven’t read John Grisham since high school, though I have. I haven’t read John Grisham in a while. I’m just. I’m dating myself as I’m a mid-forties person that it’s better that Shakespeare is better. Give me a difference. 1111 qualifying”
Where to get it
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Hamlet
William Shakespeare's classic play Hamlet follows the tragic Prince of Denmark as he grapples with grief, betrayal, and the heavy burden of avenging his father's murder.
Discussed“That lets us tell that we should be reading Hamlet before or distinct from reading the firm or a time to kill because Hamlet.”
Where to get it
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A Time to Kill
A Time to Kill by John Grisham is a bestselling legal thriller about a racially charged murder trial in Mississippi that explores profound themes of justice, revenge, and prejudice.
Discussed“That lets us tell that we should be reading Hamlet before or distinct from reading the firm or a time to kill because Hamlet.”
Where to get it
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The Confessions
The Confessions is a profound spiritual autobiography by Saint Augustine that chronicles his journey from a restless, hedonistic youth to a life of Christian faith.
Discussed“And then, of course, you read some of the Bible, and then you go into long Middle Ages. And that’s basically Augustine to the Reformation. So we start with the confessions, and we go all the way into Luther and Calvin.”
Where to get it
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The Symposium
The Symposium by Plato is a foundational philosophical text consisting of a dramatic dinner party dialogue centered on the nature, origin, and various manifestations of love.
Discussed“And so you have this shared basis of learning, but it’s amazing to see the fruits that arise from that, because they just go back to the dorm and they’re all kind of wondering what was going on in Plato’s Symposium, because it’s a really strange text in so many ways.”
Where to get it
