Episode · Interesting Times · 2026-05-21
Books mentioned on The Best Defense Against A.I. is Reading Plato | Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
What’s really driving the humanities crisis in higher education? As enrollment and reading decline, I asked Jennifer Frey, a professor of philosophy, what it was like to run a liberal arts program that was gutted.
Books mentioned, in the order they came up
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The Republic
The Republic by Plato is a foundational philosophical and political treatise that explores the nature of justice, the ideal society, the human mind, and political structures.
Discussed“Would you say that there is a inherent value in being able to read and engage with Plato’s Republic, or being able to listen to and experience Handel or Bach or anyone else who’s considered a great composer?”
Where to get it
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The Odyssey
The Odyssey by Homer is an ancient Greek epic poem that recounts the arduous ten-year journey of Odysseus as he attempts to return home after the Trojan War.
Discussed“Such as about the idea that, just for instance, that an encounter with Shakespeare is better than an encounter with fiction, or that an encounter with the Odyssey is better.”
Where to get it
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The Firm
The Firm by John Grisham is a bestselling legal thriller novel that follows a young, ambitious lawyer who joins a prestigious Memphis law firm only to discover it is secretly fronting for the Chicago mob.
Discussed“And I enjoyed the firm. I mean, just to be clear, it was entertaining. But there’s a difference between being amused and entertained.”
Where to get it
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A Time to Kill
A Time to Kill is John Grisham's debut legal thriller, which faced initial rejection and sluggish early sales before he achieved massive global success with subsequent novels like The Firm.
Discussed“That lets us tell that we should be reading Hamlet before or distinct from reading the firm or a time to kill because Hamlet.”
Where to get it
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Hamlet
Hamlet by William Shakespeare is a celebrated tragedy about a Danish prince agonizing over revenge, betrayal, and mortality.
Discussed“That lets us tell that we should be reading Hamlet before or distinct from reading the firm or a time to kill because Hamlet.”
Where to get it
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The Confessions
The Confessions by Saint Augustine is a profound autobiographical and theological work detailing the author's spiritual journey, struggles with sin, and conversion to Christianity.
Discussed“And then, of course, you read some of the Bible, and then you go into long Middle Ages. And that’s basically Augustine to the Reformation. So we start with the confessions, and we go all the way into Luther and Calvin.”
Where to get it
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The Symposium
Discussed“And so you have this shared basis of learning, but it’s amazing to see the fruits that arise from that, because they just go back to the dorm and they’re all kind of wondering what was going on in Plato’s Symposium, because it’s a really strange text in so many ways.”
Where to get it
