Nuclear War

“So we can shout out Annie Jacobson for her book nuclear war a scenario that goes through pretty much what we're about to take you through. It's what happens if the world is at war.”

“It's something that Annie Jacobson talks about in her book. Uh something that every single leader who is in charge of that decision of whether or not to launch a nuke, generally a president or somebody high up in an executive branch in any country.”

“So we can shout out Annie Jacobson for her book nuclear war a scenario that goes through pretty much what we're about to take you through.”

“By the way, have you read Annie Jacobson’s book, Nuclear War? You need to or at least have her on.”

“It's called Nuclear War. Yeah, um, what nuclear war?”

“I get into that in the end of the book. So I write the book and essentially three acts: like the first 24 minutes, the next 24 minutes, the last 24 minutes, and then nuclear winter.”

“So nuclear winter is very well described by a fellow called Professor Brian Toon, who I interview in the book.”

“As I explain in the book, and, again, as was relayed to me by defense officials, we can’t shoot down ballistic missiles, long-range ballistic missiles, with any kind of certainty or accuracy.”

“And so what I try to do is condense the lectures that I receive about how it all works into this dramatic form, which is how I landed on this format for this book, which I think is really effective, which is giving it to you like a scenario, like this is what would happen, and then going back to”

“And these things are, by the way, I have a map in the back of the book that shows you how close our adversaries, enemies, call them what you will, China and Russia, how close they come to the east coast and the west coast of the United States regularly, which means it reduces that launch time.”

“And like I said, I haven't read your book, but I have several friends who have, and they're absolutely terrified by it.”

“The only solution is – I have to tell you – I'm way more scared of nuclear conflict than I was before reading this book.”

“And like your book was like, "Actually, we'll get into all this, but it's like actually, if one person gets really suicidal or homicidal, there's pretty much nothing anyone can do about it."”

“Then you begin to learn in the course of the book about all of the other insane situations which occur in seconds and minutes, not hours, were nuclear war to become a reality.”

“Yeah, I like the way you handled that in the book.”

“Yeah, and that – I mean there's a reason why I began the book with what is known as a "bolt out of the blue" attack.”

“You mentioned in the book that something like two billion people would die as a result of this, and we know this because the US has been planning for this general nuclear war.”

“And bit by bit, I began piecing together this shocking, terrifying scenario based on all these interviews with all of these people from various generations now saying to me, "Yep, yep, that is not hyperbole. That is how it ends in your scenario in the book."”

“And by the way, if people buy the book, please use the links in the show notes; it does support the show.”

“The scenario in the book is – I'm going to overuse the word "terrifying" in this episode – but that's just the way it is, right?”

“And as I make very clear in the narrative and then specifically clear in my notes, of course, there's a hundred pages of notes at the end of the book like all my books.”

“And it's the first three seconds – I mean, it's just like the...I'll, of course, leave it to folks to read the book.”

“As you know from reading the book in advance – and thank you for reading it so closely – this is something that is horrifying in great detail.”

“But the average Joe or Jane – me, or you, doesn't know about any of this, or at least didn't; I certainly didn't in such detail until I wrote this book,and that I think is the point and the power of all of this: like understand about this, know about this, look at it face it, and then join a”

“I mean, those are other conversations; those are offshoot conversations that I hope would happen from people reading this book.”

“First and foremost, when they get it from the book in this incredibly narrative form, just like tick-tock: here's what happens; here's what happens in the first second; here's what happens in the second second.”

“But I always found that funny, of course until I read the book – I was like, why are you telling us you're going to launch the thing?”

“But the idea that we tell each other we're going to do this, in 20/20 hindsight after reading your book, is probably a really good idea.”

“And as I write in the book, you know, so while the rest of us are sleeping or going about our days, that's happening.”

“And then, as I show in the book, oh my God, what would happen were the nuclear command and control structure in the United States to figure out one of those ICBM tests isn't a test; it's actually headed for the United States?”

“So big takeaway from the early part of the book is there's no way to win a nuclear war because it just happens too darn fast.”

“And okay, it's six or so minutes, but like, for example, and again, just sharing with listeners about how I reported this book based on facts in President Reagan's memoirs, he talks about the six-minute window; he describes it as irrational.”

“And that's where even more chaos is likely to ensue as I write in the book because you have these competing interests.”

“And he really encouraged me in this, in my process here, writing this book, 'Nuclear War: A Scenario,' because he said, 'Annie, the people should know.'”

“And then you also can read analysts like Bruce Blair, a former ICBM miser himself for the Air Force when he was younger, and then he became a powerful spokesman all about nuclear weapons, and he wrote lots of really interesting papers, and his theory was, 'If North Korea were to launch a nuclear weapon at the United States,' which”

“And that’s what I write in the scenario because, you know, Secretary Panetta and others told me about some of these very serious flaws that could result in a full-scale nuclear war, and we’ll get to some of those in a second because I’m of course curious.”

“Now, I mean, not to mention the fact that if you really start to nerd out about warheads, as I do a little bit in the book, but again, read my notes.”

“And so you can have misreadings, and that is a disaster because as a number of experts describe to me in the scenario, and I relay, you can have, let’s—okay, so going back to the scenario whereby a bolt-out-of-the-blue attack from North Korea which is what I propose in the book, and then the 80 nuclear warhead response, okay?”

“So from coast to coast would be effective, and I describe in length in the book what this would mean, you know, what a nuclear weapon exploded in space would happen.”

“And this is why I use this narrative in 'Nuclear War: A Scenario' because it’s a very real fear for some in the United States government, and again, others will say that’s fear-mongering.”

“The destruction from nukes, from EMP; it’s just so horrific, and I want to say you do a really good job in the book describing it without being crass.”

“Um, and well, I’m interrupting for a second because what I also tried to do is not try to do what I did, do is pull any scene I was writing from a factual text.”

“You mentioned in the book that a lot of people would die of things like radiation poisoning and disease, and the description of that is quite gross as well, like your blood won’t coagulate, your intestines rupture, and you’re essentially poisoned by the gut contents that you have.”

“I hope people read the book and join this conversation while we can still have it.”

“I have to say before we go, I was reading the acknowledgment section of your book and found it funny; the stuff that's buried in there.”

“The following is a conversation with Annie Jacobsen, an investigative journalist, Pulitzer Prize finalist, and author of several amazing books on war, weapons, government secrecy, and national security, including the books titled 'Area 51', 'Operation Paperclip', 'The Pentagon's Brain Phenomena', 'Surprise, Kill, Vanish', and her new book, 'Nuclear War'.”

“That was one of the most remarkable details I really nailed down for this book when I was reporting it and talking to Secretaries of Defense.”

“I think the sense-making part of this is really what I'm after in this book, because I want people to understand, on the one hand, it's incredibly simple; it's just the people that have made it so complicated.”